Wow. Just wow.

Definitely parody. Christians have been threatening to shut this guy down for years. Check this page:

http://www.truechristian.com/shutusup.html

I was pretty fucking scared until I saw the second comment

I don’t remember the exact quote but it went something like”: “You can tell that fundamentalism is inherently ridiculous when you realize how hard it is to distinguish between serious fundamentalism and parody”

I think the entire website might be a dig at Christianity. I mean read this page for instance…

http://www.truechristian.com/earthflat.html

Whoever this guy is he is pretty damn funny. Thanks for the tip.

Hard to tell the difference?

OK, remember that I am a theist, a follower of Christ. But I will now give up to you a creature that you folks often confuse with all Christians. At first I thought it was satire as well. Sadly it is not. How did I find him? He visited my site and challenged me to something akin to a redneck duel (I think).

http://www.officialstreetpreachers.com/2007%20Modifications/menu.htm

http://www.soapasn.com/

You guys have more in common with Larry the Cable guy and Oprah Winfrey than with Biblical Christianity…try reading some of Jonathan Edwards sermons for a change (greatest American preacher…ever) Start with “The Wrath of God Almighty” by Jonathan E.

Oops! Sorry, I must’ve left the door open.

…Start with “The Wrath of God Almighty” by Jonathan E.

“The Wrath of God Almighty”?? There is no god, baby-brains.
Why are you so frightened of homosexuality anyhow? In my country, you and your vile sect would be prosecuted for hate-crimes. Of course in my country, your vile sect wouldn’t exist, and you would be out of the closet.

I have to comment on the part about Onan spilling his seed.

Jewish law stated that, if a man was married and died before he bore a son, his brother would sleep with his widow and the first son produced would be the dead brothers son.

Now let’s look at Onan’s problem in context:

Then Judah said to Onan, “Lie with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.” But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother.

God made the laws for Israel. God was not killing Onan for spilling his seed on the ground. God killed Onan for disobeying the law. And Onan, being a Jew, would have been thoroughly familiar with the law and punishment for those who broke it.

Now let’s look at Onan’s problem in context:

In context? You mean let’s invent a planet where some invisible character “god” makes laws and kills people and writes books and the undead whisper in old men’s ears and superman walks across the lake. And then let’s bore everyone into a coma by going on and on and on about this rubbish as if it meant anything at all other than thousands of years of insulting patriarchal life-hating bullshit.
It’s so great that christianity is dying out so quickly, but why did we have to wait so long?

The religous nut cases have been going on like this aparently for centuries. Keep the flock in awe of the priest and collect those tithes!!!!!

Everybody must go to the site that “Jad” suggested
Which is www.truechristian.com
This site will clairfy that if anyone was a bit confused on how ignorant fundamentalists really are, this site will more than demonstrate their profound ignorance.
Go on it and get a few laughs, they of course will want you to burn in hell, vindictive beings that they are.
I must however warn you that I found this website very frightning, I found it very scary that people could be so stupid, but as far as stupidity goes, they do have a donation option on their menu I guess the religios crazies never leave out the money issue do they, and that is just about the only thing that they are consistant on, is anybody surprized?

Ah it’s not a Christian website (truechristian.com) . It is just a website taking the mickey out of fundamentalist Christianity.

where is this so called evidence quoted. I see no citation from studies. Any real journalist backs up their claims. This is simple hatemongering.

I’d find this parody funny if it didn’t seem so real. The outrage around the mutilation operation was frighteningly real.

This whole web page is a joke, just read this KIDS PAGE on GIRLS:

http://www.truechristian.com/kidzgurlz.html

It’s INSANE. It’s even in valley speak.

Thank You: Jad, Peter Kahn and Dave ID.

With so many of these religious nut sites around it makes you wonder.
Maybe if the website was www.truechristian.nut
I would have caught on a bit quicker.
Thanks.

To Dave ID: yes it was insane but hilarious.

The worst or best - depending on how you look at it - is the latest on, http://www.marryourdaughter.com/ which seems to be down now. This web site was Christian parents selling off their daughters for tens of thousands of dollars. The site was incredibly well done until you tried to purchase a girl. They were selling them according to some retarded Christian Dowry and had biblical reasoning behind.

I have just seen http://www.truechristian.com i almost had started punching the walls. How can that be possible, now even in my weirdest dreams i thought someone like this could exist. People like this make me feel really angry. A glass of water would be a better discussion partner than him.

As we have seen, christian fundamentalism is indistinguishable from satire.
Has anyone tried to set up a satirical atheist site? It’s hard to imagine, isn’t it?
I think that the reason for this is that religion is essentially ridiculous, and needs little exaggeration to make that ridiculousness obvious, whereas atheism exaggerated is just atheism.
Is there any humour in not believing nonsense?

I don´t see how mocking someone or making fun of someone for their belief system is going to make that person reconsider or change their world view. I think if you are of an opposite or different world view the best way to share with someone your own belief system would be through kindness and respect.

A world view that is ridiculous to you is only ridiculous to you because of your ridiculous presupposition of it.

In context? You mean let’s invent a planet where some invisible character “god” makes laws and kills people and writes books and the undead whisper in old men’s ears and superman walks across the lake. And then let’s bore everyone into a coma by going on and on and on about this rubbish as if it meant anything at all other than thousands of years of insulting patriarchal life-hating bullshit.
It’s so great that christianity is dying out so quickly, but why did we have to wait so long?

Actually, I was just showing that the biblical passage that was taken to prove God hates people who waste their seed doesn’t actually say that. Your rant however is completely pointless.

I can see though that you are quite an intelligent person. You certainly don’t let your emotions get in the way of your thought process at all. And you seem to thoroughly examine belief systems before you decide to hate them and spew bigotry at those who espouse them. If only the world were full of people like you, then we wouldn’t be bogged down by the hateful Christians who help the poor and needy.

I’m pretty sure you just need something to hate, and since the whole world is hating Christianity right now this gives you a way to express that hate and get clapped on the back rather than charged with hate speech. You’re a hypocrite. you do the very things you think you hate Christians for. Seems to be the atheist way though.

But that’s fine because neither I nor any other Christian needs your approval. You can just put yourself up on the highest horse you can find. It’ll just hurt more when you fall off.

Daryle and Jad,

I realize that people here have said harsh things in harsh ways about Christian beliefs, even if they don’t exactly express what you believe.

I’m going to tell you a bit about myself before I go on. First off, I’m an atheist who blogs for a Christian ministry. Get your brain around that one for a second, and maybe visit my blog.

Jad said this, and I wholly agree:

I think if you are of an opposite or different world view the best way to share with someone your own belief system would be through kindness and respect.”

Daryle, taking the opposite approach, responds with both barrels:

I’m pretty sure you just need something to hate, and since the whole world is hating Christianity right now this gives you a way to express that hate and get clapped on the back rather than charged with hate speech. You’re a hypocrite. you do the very things you think you hate Christians for. Seems to be the atheist way though.

Aaaahhh….. okay. Took it a bit too far with that last sentence. You found the one angriest atheist posting here and tarred us all with his attitude and views. He said that in his country, anti-homosexual rantings such as the John Edwards piece that he was responding to, would be prosecuted as hate-speech. Tom Donald lives in the UK, and may be speaking entirely factually that in his country such statements are prosecuted.

Notice that the fire-and-brimstone evangelist was offered up by Ruben Israel as an example of “Biblical Christianity”. Here’s a taste, of Edwards, though you may already know the general flavor:

Unbeliever’s prudence and care taken to preserve their own lives, or the caring concern of others to preserve them, does not give them a moment’s security.

…

God has put Himself under no obligation, has made no promise, to keep any unbelieving man out of hell for one second.

…

So that, whatever some have imagined and pretended about promises made to natural men’s earnest seeking and knocking, it is plain and manifest, that whatever pains a natural man takes in religion, whatever prayers he makes, till he believes in Christ, God is under no obligation to keep him a moment from eternal destruction.

Therefore natural men are held in the hand of God over the pit of hell; they have deserved the fiery pit, and are already sentenced to it; and God is dreadfully provoked, His anger is as great towards them as to those that are actually suffering the executions of the fierceness of His wrath in hell, and they have done nothing in the least to appease or abate that anger, neither is God in the least bound by any promise to hold them up one moment: the devil is waiting for them, hell is gaping for them, the flames gather and flash about them, and are eager to grab hold of them, and swallow them up; the fire pent up in their own hearts is struggling to break out; and they have no interest in any Mediator, there are no means within reach that can be any security to them. In short, they have no refuge, nothing to take hold of; all that preserves them every moment is the mere arbitrary will, and uncovenanted, unobliged patience, of an incensed God.

So I don’t think that our friend Ruben Israel is pushing a friendly, “help the poor and needy” type of belief here. I think he’s calling down the wrath of an angry God threatening to smite us all for the grievous sin of remaining unconvinced by the pulpit-pounders of the world.

But that’s fine because neither I nor any other Christian needs your approval. You can just put yourself up on the highest horse you can find. It’ll just hurt more when you fall off.

That rebuke probably felt good. But really, is it honest? Is it going in the right direction? Is likely to change anyone’s mind, or improve the attitude or tone of anyone here? If you nor any other Christian needs our approval, WHY are you posting here? I notice that we aren’t the ones going to a Christian forum and posting at them, you’re the one who came here. Why? To promote understanding, or merely to bark at us and leave self-gratified?

You wrote:

You certainly don’t let your emotions get in the way of your thought process at all.

You ironically wrote this in the middle of a rant where emotions clearly got ahold of you as well. These are emotional issues, to be sure, and I don’t hold it against you that you got riled up by them. Can you see us as human beings, just as fallible as you, and look at those emotions and honor and respect them as honest expressions of human feelings?

I see you as an honorable, thoughtful and passionate person worthy of respect. I hope that you could say the same about atheists.

Thanks Siamang, well said.

Now I’m just sucking up lol

I don´t see how mocking someone or making fun of someone for their belief system is going to make that person reconsider or change their world view.

I don’t think that’s the point. Mocking christianity has other benefits, particularly counteracting the inappropriate level of respect given to this absurd cult in primitive societies.
I repeat my point about that-which-is-mockable. How come christianity is SO mockable and atheism isn’t? Isn’t it because christianity is absurd whereas atheism is mundane?

I think if you are of an opposite or different world view the best way to share with someone your own belief system would be through kindness and respect.

Kindness and respect are the currency of ordinary life, not debate. Aren’t we EVER allowed to have fun?

A world view that is ridiculous to you is only ridiculous to you because of your ridiculous presupposition of it.

By that logic there can be no such thing as an [i]actually[/i] ridiculous world view accurately appraised. I would suggest to you that given the synthetic (ie brain-made), socially mediated nature of “world view”, it is likely that ALL world views are fundamentally ridiculous. to you too.

You certainly don’t let your emotions get in the way of your thought process at all. And you seem to thoroughly examine belief systems before you decide to hate them and spew bigotry at those who espouse them.[\quote]
It’s interesting this thing about emotion and thought being somehow mutually exclusive. It does crop up with these american christians sometimes. I think it may be at sexist at root, in a society where emotion is considered characteristically female, and rationality characteristically male. What was that bit up the page? “thousands of years of insulting patriarchal life-hating bullshit” Ah yes.

If only the world were full of people like you, then we wouldn’t be bogged down by the hateful Christians who help the poor and needy.

The world is full of people like me.
It’s great!

Mocking christianity has other benefits, particularly counteracting the inappropriate level of respect given to this absurd cult in primitive societies.
I repeat my point about that-which-is-mockable. How come christianity is SO mockable and atheism isn’t? Isn’t it because christianity is absurd whereas atheism is mundane?

To some atheism may very well be mockable, we just don’t need to go there; again out of respect to the atheist and his/her belief system.

Kindness and respect are the currency of ordinary life, not debate. Aren’t we EVER allowed to have fun?

Kindness and Respect are very welcome in any debate. If you think mocking is fun then there is no way you can show our belief is any better than the system you are mocking.

“A world view that is ridiculous to you is only ridiculous to you because of your ridiculous presupposition of it. ”
By that logic there can be no such thing as an [i]actually[/i] ridiculous world view accurately appraised. I would suggest to you that given the synthetic (ie brain-made), socially mediated nature of “world view”, it is likely that ALL world views are fundamentally ridiculous. to you too.

All world views except yours of course.

Just to reiterate that this is all a windup…

http://www.truechristian.com/kidzlot2.html

Hmm… Just remember that someone took the time to *draw* those pics towards the bottom!

If you think mocking is fun then there is no way you can show our belief is any better than the system you are mocking.

“our belief”? For whom are you speaking? Of course “mocking is fun”. Have you ever seen a satirical magazine or TV program? Or website? The fun is founded on the power and prestige of the thing mocked, or it’s pomposity, or innate stupidity. These all apply to christianity, in very generous portions. That’s why it is such a good target, as we can see from the very large number of websites satirising it.

…I would suggest to you that given the synthetic (ie brain-made), socially mediated nature of “world view”, it is likely that ALL world views are fundamentally ridiculous…

All world views except yours of course.

That was not implied, quite the opposite actually.

If you think mocking is fun then there is no way you can show our belief is any better than the system you are mocking.

“our belief”? For whom are you speaking? Of course “mocking is fun”. Have you ever seen a satirical magazine or TV program? Or website? The fun is founded on the power and prestige of the thing mocked, or it’s pomposity, or innate stupidity. These all apply to christianity, in very generous portions. That’s why it is such a good target, as we can see from the very large number of websites satirising it.

Yeh I don’t mind a good laugh on satirical things about myself or my Christianity either but that is not what mocking is. To mock is to attack or treat with ridicule. I don’t mind laughing with someone about something but to laugh at someone in ridicule is a different story.

The world is full of people like me.
It’s great!

If that’s the case then I don’t see much support coming from your fellow atheists regarding the support for atheism. Siamang had a few things to say as well and he’s an atheist. I know Micheal who runs this website and I’m sure he doesn’t mock me like this either.

If your idea of Christianity comes only from fundamentalist websites then I invite you to join in a friendly conversation with me right here regarding what it is really all about. I know you think it is absurd but I think atheism is absurd. The difference is I want to hear the honest reasons why you think that it isn’t. I’m not going to get an honest answer out of you if you don’t even have the door open to a meaningful, respectful and honest conversation. Does that sound reasonable to you?

If your idea of Christianity comes only from fundamentalist websites then I invite you to join in a friendly conversation with me right here regarding what it is really all about.

My idea of christianity comes from a “christian” upbringing, church every sunday, sunday school too, prayers hymns and bible readings every morning at school, traditional christian hypocrisy at home, my father was a minister of the church of scotland actually. I studied philosophy and psychology at university, and then trained as a psychiatric nurse, although I’ve been in computers for the past twenty years.
I do know a bit about christianity. Otherwise, why would I care?
But I don’t just think christianity is absurd, I think it is insulting, harmful, stupid, and UNTRUE.

I know you think it is absurd but I think atheism is absurd. The difference is I want to hear the honest reasons why you think that it isn’t.

Er.. You want me to tell you why atheism isn’t absurd? I think that can only be done by manoeuvring around a sequence of negatives. Atheism isn’t absurd because; it doesn’t depend on big invisible telepathic “god” aliens, or undead men, or sexual perverts in positions of power, or fooling some of the people all of the time, or LIES about death, or the myopic vision of an utterly humancentric universe. Also it is compatible with common sense, scientific discovery, and LIFE.

I’m not going to get an honest answer out of you if you don’t even have the door open to a meaningful, respectful and honest conversation. Does that sound reasonable to you?

Not really. It sounds priggish to the point of paralysis. Part of the christian bag, though.
That is an alternative explanation for “why are there no sites satirising atheism”? Christians can’t afford to have a sense of humour, start laughing at absurdity, and where do you stop?

My idea of christianity comes from a “christian” upbringing, church every sunday, sunday school too, prayers hymns and bible readings every morning at school, traditional christian hypocrisy at home, my father was a minister of the church of scotland actually. I studied philosophy and psychology at university, and then trained as a psychiatric nurse, although I’ve been in computers for the past twenty years.
I do know a bit about christianity. Otherwise, why would I care?
But I don’t just think christianity is absurd, I think it is insulting, harmful, stupid, and UNTRUE.

Ok lets start with what you find untrue. What is is that proves to you that there is no God? Is it just that you can’t see Him or is it more detailed than that?

Er.. You want me to tell you why atheism isn’t absurd? I think that can only be done by manoeuvring around a sequence of negatives. Atheism isn’t absurd because; it doesn’t depend on big invisible telepathic “god” aliens, or undead men, or sexual perverts in positions of power, or fooling some of the people all of the time, or LIES about death, or the myopic vision of an utterly humancentric universe. Also it is compatible with common sense, scientific discovery, and LIFE.

Hmm a couple of things here. You can’t imply sexual perverts in positions of power to theists alone; or lies about death, or a human centered universe. These are all human traits capable by all humans, not just theists.
Also how is atheism compatible with common sense specifically? And how is it compatible with scientific discovery? And lastly being compatible to life is subjective; anyone can say that regarding their own life, unless they can prove it objectively to all walks of life.

I’m not going to get an honest answer out of you if you don’t even have the door open to a meaningful, respectful and honest conversation. Does that sound reasonable to you?

Not really. It sounds priggish to the point of paralysis. Part of the christian bag, though.
That is an alternative explanation for “why are there no sites satirising atheism”? Christians can’t afford to have a sense of humour, start laughing at absurdity, and where do you stop?

There actually are websites mocking atheism, I just don’t support them and therefore I will not share them with you. And again it’s not satirizing, they do not attack to get a laugh or just for fun.

Ok lets start with what you find untrue. What is is that proves to you that there is no God? Is it just that you can’t see Him or is it more detailed than that?

Er… Let’s start with the complete absence of any evidence whatsoever for this “god” thing. I think that’s significant. The god concept has been part of our history for thousands of years, but there is a complete absence of any evidence whatsoever for the actual existence of “god”.

It’s really not an effort not to believe in something which cannot be experienced in the world except as the interpretation of the devotee.
OR to put it less negatively, believing in something like “god” is an activity. That’s why you christians have to spend so much time talking about it, sometimes to each other, sometimes to yourselves (aka “god”), and sometimes to people outside the activity, in the hope that they’ll join in.

You can’t imply sexual perverts in positions of power to theists alone; or lies about death, or a human centered universe. These are all human traits capable by all humans, not just theists.

It’s only the church which has made these the central defining policies of its power.

There actually are websites mocking atheism, I just don’t support them and therefore I will not share them with you. And again it’s not satirizing, they do not attack to get a laugh or just for fun.

So you are claiming that there are websites mocking atheism, but you won’t say where they are? Don’t you think us unpleasant god-deniers deserve to experience the tough-love of the godly mockers?
Come on, Jad!

Er… Let’s start with the complete absence of any evidence whatsoever for this “god” thing. I think that’s significant. The god concept has been part of our history for thousands of years, but there is a complete absence of any evidence whatsoever for the actual existence of “god”.

The ‘God’ thing yes has been around a long time but I don’t think you can then pass it off as something we used to believe in but now because of atheism we are coming to realize that we really need a ‘God’ belief system anymore. I mean it’s not as if atheism is now here and it’s come to save us all from that idiotic thought of a ‘God’ of some sort. Atheism has been around for thousands of years as well and is nothing new.
So the ‘God’ thing must have something to it then if it’s stuck around for so long even if you cannot see it yourself.

I think we should start with the basic arguments for the existence of God to answer your skepticism on the actuality of there being some kind of god. For example what are your thoughts on the Cosmological Argument for the existence of a god or and uncaused cause? Have you heard it and if so what are your arguments against it?

It’s really not an effort not to believe in something which cannot be experienced in the world except as the interpretation of the devotee.
OR to put it less negatively, believing in something like “god” is an activity. That’s why you christians have to spend so much time talking about it, sometimes to each other, sometimes to yourselves (aka “god”), and sometimes to people outside the activity, in the hope that they’ll join in.

I would say it’s even less of an effort to believe in no God like yourself. But ironically as a devotee of this no god system it is quite an activity for you! You spend some good effort mocking Christians with either the intent to convert them to atheism or just to simply have a good laugh at them; and then call it satire.

“You can’t imply sexual perverts in positions of power to theists alone; or lies about death, or a human centered universe. These are all human traits capable by all humans, not just theists.”

It’s only the church which has made these the central defining policies of its power.

There is no church that has a policy of sexual perverts in positions of power. The church in general is Christ centered for the most part and humans are the very reason He created this universe. Adding sexual perverts in there as well is really your own interpretation an a false accusation. I will presume you are simply mocking again yes?

So you are claiming that there are websites mocking atheism, but you won’t say where they are? Don’t you think us unpleasant god-deniers deserve to experience the tough-love of the godly mockers?
Come on, Jad!

Haha no way. It would make you even more unpleasant.

…the ‘God’ thing must have something to it then if it’s stuck around for so long even if you cannot see it yourself.

It has ancient history, like astrology and goblins and other primitive beliefs.

…what are your thoughts on the Cosmological Argument for the existence of a god or and uncaused cause? Have you heard it and if so what are your arguments against it?

This is that dreary stuff about everything has a cause, and that means there must be a god, or something. It is incredible and incredibly weak. In essence, it says something must have happened to bring the universe about, and because the person arguing doesn’t know what that was, it must be some big invisible man. Clearly nonsense! Why shouldn’t it have been a giant toad? Or a mighty robot? Or nothing? Or radioactive custard? No, it’s a big invisible man! Case proved! (not). It’s frightfully dreary, hunt out something you don’t know, and project your “god” fantasy into it.

There is no church that has a policy of sexual perverts in positions of power.

Obviously untrue. The catholic church completely insists on it. Enforced abstinence is a cruel and dangerous perversion, which seriously damages the individual’s ability to function in human society. Perhaps you’ve noticed the amazingly high levels of rape carried out by catholic priests: this is part of the cost of the perversion of human sexuality. But there is a silver lining on this rotten cloud: celibacy stops young men becoming priests.
Another example of institutional sexual perversion is the denial of the homosexuality of priests in sects that allow marital sex. Imagine the pain this causes, the mundane domestic misery. But this is an institutional requirement of these cults. It is ironic that the most noise about this at the moment is coming from the episcopalian church, which is without doubt one of the most gay institutions in the history of the world.

The church in general is Christ centered for the most part and humans are the very reason He created this universe.

Do you really feel comfortable with such speciesist arrogance? The entire universe exists so that you can chat with “god”, in who’s image you happen to be made yourself? Lucky you! What a limited vision humancentrism gives. One of the very worst things about the theist cults is that they so devalue life in it’s richness variety and power. Us humans are not above it, we’re part of it.

I will presume you are simply mocking again yes?

No.

I thought the radioactive custard was the latest viable contestant in science’s dreary search for cause. The source of all that multi-bubble universe generating foam. Perhaps it was a cosmic pudding, or jello, I can’t keep up with the metaphor du jour. Of course,I don’t think anyone has used the ‘invisible giant man’ metaphor for quite some time now. I remember last seeing it on Star Trek (or maybe it was Dr. Who?) - a big hand that grabbed the Enterprise (that’s right, it was Star Trek). It was a good episode - I think it was written by Harlan Ellison - No- it was Sir Francis Crick!

Good old Christian “meat-man” Beyer has a shot at satirising atheism, but I think he’s actually able only to satirise my own infantilistic smartarse stylee: Nice one, CB!
But seriously, Christian, do you get my sexual perversion groove? It’s more on a humanist than an atheist tag, but hey! atheism is more about pointing at a vacuum than about “How People Are”.
What do you call people who think that “Life” is the really interesting thing?

People who have never tried Scrapple. I’m not a big fan of ‘healthy’ cereals, myself. Have you had your Weetabix?

It’s interesting that you are taking this argument deeper into the world of food analogies. Although perhaps custards and puddings will not work, you may have hit upon something here with breakfast foods. Who hasn’t sat transfixed, gazing intently into the staring eyes of two sunny-side-up eggs? If that doesn’t set you onto the quest for the answer to the universal question, not much else will.

Wait, as a vegan, you must be deprived of this experience. I suggest you sit close to someone else at breakfast next time. Suggest that they order sunny side up eggs, two of them, and then ask if you could borrow their plate for a moment or two. Hopefully you will find enlightenment before they eggs become too cold to remain palatable. Good luck, jolly good, all that!

Atheist Perspective Backup

“…the ‘God’ thing must have something to it then if it’s stuck around for so long even if you cannot see it yourself.”

It has ancient history, like astrology and goblins and other primitive beliefs.

… and atheism, all of which have never even come close to the impact on which Christianity has had on this world.

“…what are your thoughts on the Cosmological Argument for the existence of a god or and uncaused cause? Have you heard it and if so what are your arguments against it?”

This is that dreary stuff about everything has a cause, and that means there must be a god, or something. It is incredible and incredibly weak. In essence, it says something must have happened to bring the universe about, and because the person arguing doesn’t know what that was, it must be some big invisible man. Clearly nonsense! Why shouldn’t it have been a giant toad? Or a mighty robot? Or nothing? Or radioactive custard? No, it’s a big invisible man! Case proved! (not). It’s frightfully dreary, hunt out something you don’t know, and project your “god” fantasy into it.

I used to agree with you on that argument against the cosmological argument but I think if you go a little deeper and think a little harder you will find there is really only one possible solution. All the examples you’ve given are logical explanations of what thisuncaused cause might be; the trouble is while something is logically conceivable in the mind, it does not mean it is actually true or based in reason. Logic doesn’t tell us what is actually true, but only tells us what is valid. For example…

1) All Irish people have pink tails
2) Tom and Jad are Irish, therefore
3) Tom and Jad have pink tails

The above statement is completely logical but it’s not actually true, obviously. It is logical only because the conclusion (3) follows the first two statements logically but in reality there is no such thing as human people with pink tails. That is where reason comes in. Reason gives us actual material truth about reality. In the case of logic on it’s own, people with pink tails cannot be proven, giant toads, a mighty robot, radioactive custard, a big invisible man and neither can God Himself. I think we need to make the distinction between logic on it’s own and logic with reason. If this isn’t made we can be stuck in the abstract realm of possibility, conception, and theory; and somehow confuse that for the realm of actual concrete reality.

Would you agree?

“There is no church that has a policy of sexual perverts in positions of power.”

Obviously untrue. The catholic church completely insists on it. Enforced abstinence is a cruel and dangerous perversion, which seriously damages theindividual’s ability to function in human society. Perhaps you’ve noticed the amazingly high levels of rape carried out by catholic priests: this is part of the cost of the perversion of human sexuality. But there is a silver lining on this rotten cloud: celibacy stops young men becoming priests.
Another example of institutional sexual perversion is the denial of the homosexuality of priests in sects that allow marital sex. Imagine the pain this causes, the mundane domestic misery. But this is an institutional requirement of these cults. It is ironic that the most noise about this at the moment is coming from the episcopalian church, which is without doubt one of the most gay institutions in the history of the world.

You imply sexual abstinence is ALWAYS a cruel and dangerous perversion when it is not. Not having sexual abstinence is 10x a more cruel and dangerous perversion. Would you like to do a head count of sexually perverted priests as opposed to sexually perverted people outside the Catholic church? If you follow tabloids only I can see how you would come to this conclusion. Again sexual perversion is not a policy in any church, it is simply available to all human beings, Christian or atheist, abstinent or not.

“The church in general is Christ centered for the most part and humans are the very reason He created this universe.”

Do you really feel comfortable with such speciesist arrogance? The entire universe exists so that you can chat with “god”, in who’s image you happen to be made yourself? Lucky you! What a limited visionhumancentrism gives. One of the very worst things about the theist cults is that they so devalue life in it’s richness variety and power. Us humans are not above it, we’re part of it.

Humans are far and away the most intellectually advanced species on this planet and the known universe. It has nothing to do with arrogance at all; it is a simple fact. The entire universe exists so that you an I may have a personal relationship with a personal God, not just idle chit chat. I’m curious though how is this supposed human centered universe limiting? How does it devalue life in richness, variety and power?

…I think if you go a little deeper and think a little harder you will find there is really only one possible solution.