Michael didn’t you once say that you are open to debate about the existence of God? How can that be if you post such articles which show you to closed to the existence of God.
I am quite certain that you are not ope to discussion, that you simply enjoy being the king of a sensationalist blog.

Have a nice Sunday

AREN’T YOU A BIT YOUNG TO ALREADY BE THIS INDOCTRINATED? i DON’T MIND YOU DISAGREEING WITH MY BELIEF SYSTEM, BUT WHERE DOES THE DEFINITION OF ATHEIST STATE THAT YOU HAVE TO BE AN OBNOXIOUS, RUDE, ELITIST, EVANGELIZING, ARSE?

http://www.picvault.info/images/537036843_young.png

hehe,

Oh, very well done. I see the loving, christian compassion shining through. Is that how your bible teaches you to treat kids? I suppose it’s better than taking them to the edge of town and throwing rocks at them.

Well i can apologise for a lack of charity, however this whole blog site is geared at insulting people who believe in God. It is a little bit hippocritical to complain of a lack of kindness when this very article ridicules people who believe in God, accusing them of being emotionally immature and even childish by calling God an imaginary friend.
I have apologised, however i do think that what “TisStupid” said;
“WHERE DOES THE DEFINITION OF ATHEIST STATE THAT YOU HAVE TO BE AN OBNOXIOUS, RUDE, ELITIST..”
is correct. I feel that Michael does respond to posts in a very rude manner. Anyway enough said.

See ya, have a nice day.

A few observations about the cartoon:

1) The child hasn’t been identified as an atheist, he could just as easily have been raised[1] in a non-christian religious environment.
2) The context of the cartoon implies a counterpoint to the traditional notion that children are usually the ones to have imaginary friends, regardless of the nature of the imaginary friend in question.
3) The evidence for the existence of any gods whatsoever is completely lacking, and as such, even if the child has had no religious upbringing, the observation presented by the child’s question is justified.

Imagine for a moment, that the woman character in the cartoon has a small pendant with a picture of Zeus, Horus, Thor or Ganesh on it. Would you have the same attitude of personal affront? Somehow I doubt it.

Any accusation of lacking kindness is fully justified, regardless of this blogger’s position: christianity preaches kindness as a core tenet and directive from their particular god, and therefore the onus is on those that call themselves christians to reflect and uphold this attitude, I presume at all times and in all places — there is no onus on atheists to do the same, that is left as a decision of the individual and their own conscience and attitudes.

Indeed, if one follows the claims of the christian bible, one could be justified in believing that non-believers are completely lacking in morals, and should therefore not be surprised at a lack of respect for christian beliefs. I am in no way saying that Michael exemplifies this, only that for a christian to assume this, and then demand that he acts in a manner that is proscribed for christians alone is itself hypocrisy.

Your observation that I am hypocritical to complain of a lack of kindness is completely unjustified. My comment held no malice and indeed pointed out what the christian bible deems as appropriate retribution for dealing with insolent children. I would like to presume that you agree that such action would be completely repellant: to assume that you would agree with the bible in this regard is just too repugnant for me to contemplate.

The fact that you feel that Michael responds in a rude manner proves nothing other than you do not like his responses. There is no compulsion on the part of Michael nor anybody else to hold your beliefs in esteem. While it may be prudent to respond to you in a respectful manner, any reason to do so would be through a respect for you as a fellow human, and this certainly doesn’t automatically extend to your beliefs.

To be honest, I’m just thankful that you’re calling for Michael’s, or indeed the cartoonist’s, head, something that members of some other religions — which I won’t mention — might do with glee.

Regards.

[1] I’m deliberately not using the word “indoctrinated”.

Oops. I mistakenly omitted the word “not” from the last paragraph of that last reply, as in “To be honest, I’m just thankful that you’re not calling for Michael’s, or indeed the cartoonist’s, head…”

My mistake.

“The evidence for the existence of any gods whatsoever is completely lacking, and as such, even if the child has had no religious upbringing, the observation presented by the child’s question is justified.”

Are you really going to give your decree on this subject? Does the mighty null wish to eradicate all of the formal proofs for the existence of God? Does he wish to ignore thousands of years of even the most educated people believing in God?
You said that th proof for the existence of God is lacking, what a huge and gravely incorrect thing to say. There are proofs for the existence of God, just as there are attempts to disprove God. Would you be interested in looking at these properly?

“Imagine for a moment, that the woman character in the cartoon has a small pendant with a picture of Zeus, Horus, Thor or Ganesh on it..”
You present the beliefs of monotheistic religions as being absurd and comparing to religions with many gods. This is ridiculous, you know very well, as do I, that it is illogical to have more than one God. Also we can know more about the nature of this God by His work, creation.

You are thankful that i am not calling for Michael’s head! Ok, you may now proceed to vilify theists, but maybe you would like to give examples and even quotations of teachings which tell Christians to cut heads off.

You may carry on with your little fantasy of there being no God, because that is what it is. How often is it said that people believe in God as someone to be a father to them and to make their lives easier? But i say that people choose not to believe in God because life is easier without justice and judgment, life is easier when you suppress your guilt and give in to bad actions, life is easier if you don’t believe in God, because you become your own God.

I want to ask you a question. When did you stop believing in God? And can you honestly say that you live an uncomprimised life, one that would be deemed well lived by religion? If not, do you not think this has an affect on your beliefs??

Thanks, please can we try to be more charitable, can we keep our responses calm please.

“Are you really going to give your decree on this subject? Does the mighty null wish to eradicate all of the formal proofs for the existence of God? Does he wish to ignore thousands of years of even the most educated people believing in God?

What are these “formal proofs” of which you speak? I’ve read plenty of philosophical apologist arguments, and have yet to be presented with any that is sound in both premisses and conclusions. If you can provide me with just one, I’ll be happy to take back that statement.

Sarcasm doesn’t become you. I have not claimed to be “mighty”, so your epithet is both unwarranted and snide, a most unchristian quality, I shouldn’t wonder.

Appeals to tradition, popularity or authority don’t count as evidence; the evidence used to convince these people should be available for anybody of sound mind to see. If you are going to resort to such arguments, and you think they are valid, I put it to you that most of the world’s population are not christians, and that most of the world’s brightest people (many of which are scientists) are free of a belief in a personal god. Draw from these whatever conclusion you will, but I suspect that you would say that they are irrelevant, as I do.

You said that th proof for the existence of God is lacking, what a huge and gravely incorrect thing to say. There are proofs for the existence of God, just as there are attempts to disprove God. Would you be interested in looking at these properly?

Indeed I would. It would make me very rich indeed. If you have them, please present them. I will correct my previous statements accordingly.

You present the beliefs of monotheistic religions as being absurd and comparing to religions with many gods. This is ridiculous, you know very well, as do I, that it is illogical to have more than one God. Also we can know more about the nature of this God by His work, creation.

You misrepresent my position: I did not say that monotheistic religions are absurd — I said that there was no evidence of any gods, which isn’t the same thing. Also, I don’t see how it is illogical to have more than one god, and I certainly don’t “very well know” that this is the case. That’s like saying it’s illogical to have more than one person play in a sport team. Please explain how you arrive at the conclusion that a single god is the only state that can possibly exist, it most certainly isn’t self-evident.

I am free to compare any religion, mono- or polytheistic, to any others that I so choose. There is no requirement for me to not do so. If I were interested in submitting myself to the whims of either one god or a multitude of gods, I would investigate each of these individually and comparatively and determine which I found as the most compelling. So far, none of them are, and I therefore remain without any god beliefs.

You are thankful that i am not calling for Michael’s head! Ok, you may now proceed to vilify theists, but maybe you would like to give examples and even quotations of teachings which tell Christians to cut heads off.

Again, you misrepresent my position. I said that I was thankful that you weren’t doing so: I didn’t claim that the christian religion said it was ok, nor that you had any desire to do so — I was merely thankful for the fact that (even though it appears I have to spell it out here) your attitude is perhaps a little more enlightened than that expressed by some of our muslim brothers who think that this is certainly an appropriate response to cartoon-based observations. For that I am grateful.

Perhaps you’re confusing this with my previous comment that described the requirement to stone unruly children, which is in the christian scripture (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).

You may carry on with your little fantasy of there being no God, because that is what it is. How often is it said that people believe in God as someone to be a father to them and to make their lives easier? But i say that people choose not to believe in God because life is easier without justice and judgment, life is easier when you suppress your guilt and give in to bad actions, life is easier if you don’t believe in God, because you become your own God.

Ok, let’s compare the two shall we?

Me: I see no actual gods, so I don’t believe in gods.
You: I see no actual gods, but there are things that I can’t explain and so I believe in a single god that’s defined in this one scripture, but I will ignore every single one of the other scriptures and their gods - they’re all quite obviously wrong.

Really, which one of us has to come up with the most MacGuffins to support their ‘fantasy’? When people like me say things like “I don’t see any evidence of gods, therefore I don’t believe in gods”, say to yourself and understand the following: “I don’t see any evidence of [fairies], therefore I don’t believe in [fairies]”. Feel free to insert your own choice of mythological creature where indicated: when you understand why you dismiss these, then you might understand why I don’t believe in gods.

It doesn’t matter how often some people might say that their god is a “father to them”. Feely-good-niceness isn’t evidence of existence of a god, it’s only evidence that they feel good because of their belief in the existence of a god. It doesn’t make it true just because they say so.

In the same token, you may say that “people choose not to believe in God because life is easier without justice and judgment” but again this doesn’t make it true. In fact, for somebody like me, if you want my honest opinion, I would dearly love for there to be the loving, kind, generous god that some parts of christianity present. But my belief isn’t a choice, it’s a consequence of what I see (or don’t see) in the world, the actions and words of theists, the results of acting on scriptural directives and the pressure that those who do believe in gods attempt to force on those that don’t share their beliefs.

And again, you misprepresent my position; I do live with justice and judgement: the justice of my country’s laws, and the judgement of my peers, myself and the society in which I live. To say that I do neither of these things is to pull an opinion out of your backside. I can’t say if life is easier with or without a god belief, and I certainly don’t claim to be my own god — that ide, to me, is quite preposterous. I take it upon myself to act responsibly, and if I make a mistake I’m willing to pay the consequences — this is personal responsibility, and I take it just as seriously as you take your scripture inspired rules.

I want to ask you a question. When did you stop believing in God? And can you honestly say that you live an uncomprimised life, one that would be deemed well lived by religion? If not, do you not think this has an affect on your beliefs??

I’ve never had any kind of god belief, my parents brought me up to respect people for the sake of respecting them and receiving respect in return, not because a preacher has said that it’s the right thing to do.

And I don’t quite follow your second and third questions, but if I take the second to mean “do I think that my lifestyle conforms to a religious one” I would ask “which religion do you mean?”. If I can further assume that you mean the christian religion, I would then ask “which sect do you mean?”. Further, if I presume that you indicate some kind of protestantism, then I would have to answer “no” — I obviously break the first of (what are commonly considered) the ten commandments. But I don’t lie, I don’t cheat, I don’t steal, I’ve never killed anyone, never been in a fight, I respect my friends, I try to forgive those that have wronged me, I try my damnedest not to wrong anyone else, I am faithful to my partner, I work hard, I help those in need when I can and I am thankful to those that help me when I require it. My attitude can be summed up as “do the most good and the least harm that I can”. Make of this what you will. As far as I’m concerned, none of this contributes one jot to my lack of a belief in gods.

Thanks, please can we try to be more charitable, can we keep our responses calm please.

I contend that my previous response was not uncharitable, merely accurate and considered. In fact, I was so charitable as to refuse, deliberately, to use the word “indoctrination” to describe raising children into religious traditions; I could quite easily have failed to do so and this would definitely make my response far less charitable. Perhaps you missed this small concession. And as for calmness: always, I don’t fancy a stomach ulcer.

Regards.

Null, Awesom reply. I’m sorry when some of us act as though the world is about to end because you think differently than we do.

I’ve been thinking about how Null and Daniel and others just like us have been interacting while defending our respective corners in the religion debate. Daniel it seems was greatly offended by what I thought was a pretty funny joke, even if it was aimed at my beliefs. Beyond that, I wonder Daniel, why it is that blogs like this push our buttons. I don’t know if you’ve read any of my interactions with Michael, but I had a dickens of a time maintaining my cool. And like Null has pointed out, some of the stuff we’ve said and the way in which we’ve said it has been a long, long way from how we’re instructed to interact with non believers, or anyone for that matter. Un Christian is how he accurately phrased it. When I see us freakin out because atheists don’t convert within a couple paragraphs, it’s pretty embarrassing, at least for me. We make it pretty easy for an atheist to say, in reference to Christians, something like, “Ya, that’s what I thought they were like.”

I used to run therapy groups about 18 or 20 years ago. One day a guy in one of the groups was going on and on about things that his boss did. It seems to this gentleman that his boss was acting in a really unfair manner. I asked, “What’s one word that you would use to describe your boss.” It took him about a 1/4 of a second to respond, “Jerk!!!” So I said to him, “Well, if he’s a jerk, as you say, why do you sound as though you expect him to behave differently? What you’ve been describing is exactly how jerks behave. Accept it, deal with it or move on.”

To me, this is what’s kinda been happening on this site. We Christians come here, uninvited and then when we see / hear atheists doing what atheists do, Daniel and I and probably others act as though this is something shocking. We act as though it shouldn’t be happening. As well, we don’t even ask ourselves why we might be treated this way.

I for one was saddened when I read how low atheists were rated in a poll that was making the rounds a bit ago regarding who people would or would not vote for in the American election. I mean, I would have felt badly for whomever made it in last place but you guys really take a hit. They didn’t include turds in the poll, but I’m not sure you would have beaten even one of them. No wonder you’re so angry. All that counts to other people is your beliefs. No one cares that you have the same hopes and dreams and fears and longings as the rest of us. No one cares that most of you are decent people, or that you love your children as much as anyone or that you try to do your jobs well etc. etc.. You’re only judged by your beliefs, or more accurately you’re judged by your lack of one belief.

So it shouldn’t surprise us Christians at all when you lash out at us, cause that’s just the way atheists act. Regardless of whether, like Null, you were raised to respect other people, when it comes to Christians, atheists mock, jeer, taunt, belittle, ridicule, sneer at, and heckle us. Atheists tell us we’re idiots, weak, stupid, naive, and on some sites we’re told that not just our religion but we ourselves should be done away with. It’s not just that cartoons are written about us, we’re seen as cartoons. Daniel my compatriot, this is life. This is how atheists behave. Accept it, deal with it or move on.

On the other hand, we’re not so different, atheists and us.
. Both Christians and atheists think the other is an idiot
. Both think the other is living out wishful thinking
. Both are obsessed with the concept of a Creator God
. Both think the other lacks reason and intellectual honesty
. Both think the quality of their lives is enhanced by their beliefs
. Both accept and believe things that they simply don’t understand
. Both think the other is only believing what s/he was taught as a child
. Both think the other is making the world a worse place in which to live
. Both formulate reasons why they don’t believe what the other one believes
. Both sides rarely admit to the fact that they indoctrinate their children with their beliefs
. Both beliefs require faith. Atheists’ faith is in their powers of intellect. Christian faith is in the person of Jesus the Christ.
. Both are born in rebellion to the idea that a God exists to whom they will someday be accountable.
Atheists maintain that position throughout their lives by adhering to evidence that they believe supports their position.
Christians have come to change their minds through spiritual and intellectual exploration. Christians come to their position by accepting evidence that they can no longer refute.

I do have to say Null that I don’t care if you use the word indoctrinate re: children or not. On the other hand, from my point of view it goes something like this:
When kids from Christian homes are taught that Jesus loves them
When they’re taught to marvel at the wondrous Creation
When they’re taught about Who is the source of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self-control,
When they’re taught how wondrous and how marvellously they’re made
When they’re taught about the infinite variety of their Creator’s hands
When they’re taught to be grateful
When they’re taught to give thanks
When they’re taught that they’re part of a larger whole,
When they’re taught that because all people are created in the image of God, all people, have dignity and worth, from conception to their last breath, whether they’re intelligent or whether they require constant care.
When they’re taught to not steal, or kill, or lie and, like Null, to respect others etc., it’s called brain washing and indoctrination.

. When atheist kids are taught that this is all there is.
. When they’re taught that they are the highest good and there is no other
. When they’re taught that they’re an accident and that may be good or not good depending on their degree of depression
. When they’re taught, with or without words to despise people of faith, it’s called good parenting.

Finally,instead of waiting for a post where this question might fit, I was just wondering Null. When kids raised in Christian homes decide in later life to follow Jesus it’s said to be the result of brainwashing and indoctrination. What’s it called when kids raised by atheist parents believe what they were taught? Do they have to believe in something else to prove their intellectual integrity? I’m just wondering. How does that work?

[…] a discussion from the Atheist Perspective […]

Makarios,

thanks for your response and questions. In reply, I have posted mine at my own blog so as not to abuse Michael’s facilities.

You can follow up there if you so choose.

Regards.

Daniel:

Does the mighty null wish to eradicate all of the formal proofs for the existence of God?

A formal proof for the existence of God? Really? Show me please?

Also, is faith with proof still faith?

Does he wish to ignore thousands of years of even the most educated people believing in God?

Aha - an appeal to popularity mixed with an appeal to tradition. People thought the Earth was the centre of the solar system for a lot longer than they believed in your particular deity. Didn’t make it right, did it?

This is ridiculous, you know very well, as do I, that it is illogical to have more than one God. Also we can know more about the nature of this God by His work, creation.

What line of logic are you taking here? Why is more than one deity any more or less logical than exactly one? If anything the existence of one is less logical, as who created that one god? (etc). Amazing.

Dearest Michael,
I have some good news and I have some bad news. First the bad news. I don’t know how to say it any way but straight up. Null has asked me to go out with him. I just don’t know what to do. I don’t want to hurt you. Actually I already made out with him last night. There. It’s out. Michael, please don’t feel cheap. It’s not you. It’s me. I’m a brute and a cad. It could never have worked out between you and me. I have this wild streak and, well, I think it’s your Catholic upbringing Michael. I’m afraid it going to haunt you forever and ever. Whereas Null and his friend TW, well, they’re just so exciting. I’d like to say more but Null is at the curb honking his horn. Michael, I’ve never stopped loving you. If it doesn’t work out between Null and me maybe we could try again. On the other hand, I think Daniel is more your type. He told me he thinks your hot.

The good news is, and this is in all seriousness, you remind me of the guy in the Bible named Saul or later Paul. You can read about him in Acts Chapter 9. This was a guy who hated Christians at least as much as you do. The big difference is he had to power to actually do to their relgion what you want to do. He was a one man ‘put an end to Christianity’ show. When Christians were going to the lions, he was part of the reason. He fully admitted to torturing them to death in an attempt to get them to change, not to atheism but to his own way of life, which is still what you want to do. Imagine, it’s your goal to put an end to people’s faith. I still think that’s really, really sad. Anyway, to make a long story short, Jesus, my and Paul’s imaginary friend, stopped him dead in his tracks, literally, and said, now get this, “Paul, why are you persecuting Me?” Paul is attacking Christianity and it’s followers and Jesus says, “Why are you persecuting Me?” Here’s the most important point Michael. Jesus wasn’t saying this out of anger. He was saying it because he loved Paul. He could see that Paul’s way of life was filled with bitterness. And that, as you well know, is a tough load to carry.

You know what Michael? I think Jesus is saying the same thing to you. He loves you with such an aggressive love. He steps right through your spittle on his face, and your curses and your smash mouth punches and your kicks to his groin. He walks up to you through your hatred and rejection. He comes to you through your doubts and unneeded fears. And just as you’re about to drive the nails into His hands, he is looking you directly in the eyes and instead of being angry at you, instead of rejecting you, he says, “Father, forgive Michael, because he doesn’t even know what he’s doing.”

Even while you’re trying to run and hide from Jesus, he is showing you mercy and grace. He’s saying to you Michael, “I’m sorry that your parents used religion to hurt you so terribly, but don’t push me away because of it. They lied to you - not Me. They punished you - not me. They used coercion and guilt. All I want is to offer you love and acceptance and forgiveness.”

Even though you mock and ridicule his followers, Jesus wraps His arms around you and tries to shield you from danger. Even though He knew that you would be determined at this time in your life to remain His enemy, He died for you anyway. Don’t you think it’s almost time in your life for you to just let God love you and to enjoy that love?

This was a guy who hated Christians at least as much as you do.

Oddly, I have read through lots of posts on this blog and I wouldn’t for one second have said Michael hated Christians.

Sadly, despite what you say in the rest of your post, God speaks to very, very few people directly…

Ya, I need to change that. Paul saw Christianity as dangerous to society as Michael does.

Oh, TW I forgot, Um, I left a question for you on Null’s blog. If you haven’t already done it, would you anwer it for me please?

As you (now) know, I have replied. Unless you mean the second post where you pretty much tried to insult me the whole time - I have also replied to that.

Well, I went for a long, long bike ride trying to figure out what happened that made me write the stuff I did. It was pretty awful. I’m sure that sorry won’t begin to cover the wrong of what I did TW, but I am truly sorry. I wish I could offer a good reason, beyond I’m an asshole. Unfortunately nothing comes to mind. So, if you are able, please accept my heartfelt apology. You too Null. Some of my comments re: what you said were pretty sarcastic. Not acceptable. Very sorry.

I promise I’ll quit blubbering after this. I just want to finally say that my comments portrayed a total lack of compassion, a total lack of desire to understand TW and Null’s point of view, and a total lack of loving my neighbour as myself. My comments were overflowing with arrogance and pride. It was an attack so vile and corrosive that I simply don’t possess the words to describe how ashamed I am of what I did. What I did and said goes against everything I believe about how humans should treat each other. It does reveal however only a portion of what I am capable of doing. Destroying and tearing down someone else is pretty despicable. While I used to do that with my body, I obviously still sometimes do that with my mouth. Sadly my journey is far from my desired destination. Again, TW and Null, I’m sorry beyond words.

I believe this is the tack atheists should take. Let’s not debate any more, it’s a waste of time. Debate is for open-minded people. Believers are not open-minded. It’s time to let them know what we really think, that their belief in supernatural beings is childish and foolish for anyone but a young child. We wouldn’t tolerate a president or teachers or any other people of power/importance spouting about being abducted by aliens or believing in trolls or unicorns, why are we tolerating these same people’s absurd declaration of their belief in imaginary deities ?

“

I believe this is the tack atheists should take. Let’s not debate any more, it’s a waste of time. Debate is for open-minded people…We wouldn’t tolerate a president or teachers or any other people….”

“

You sound like the typical open-minded atheist to me. Lets see, if they disagree close the debates. This sounds like people on college campuses where only evolution is tolerated. Hail to Ceasar! We are Atheists! Hail to Ceasar! Burn Rome, blame the Christains!