Of course I meant ‘to use a phrase’, linguistic slip up, I’m sorry but I was typing fast

Hey, Michael what did you mean by;
“JESUS Fuxing H Christ!”??
????

Exactly what I said:

“Teaching the kids what the bible says about dinosaurs and that dinosaur is a new word???? Time to take the Lord’s name in vain I believe. JESUS Fuxing H Christ!”

That is, I was taking the Lord’s name in vain.

However i do find the theory of evolution insulting. I fail to see my mother as a random evolution, for then she would just be worthless and not worth loving.

That’s a very very very good point. It is also related to the issue of morality outside of religion. There was a recent post on Way of the Mind which dealt in part with this issue. I want to take a closer look at morality outside of religion but for the time being Pedro does a good job in his post: http://www.wayofthemind.org/2007/02/28/faq-without-belief-in-an-afterlife-fear-of-hell-how-can-people-be-moral/

————
Think of two children. One “behaves” because he was properly raised, because he really cares about doing the right thing, because he has moral principles. The second “behaves” only because he’s afraid of being spanked. Which one do you think is the “better” child? The most moral one?

There are many possible reasons to care for other people. Empathy, for instance. Cooperation. Community. Belief in other people. Love. Respect. A sense of justice, of fairness. Wanting to make the world a better place. Does one really need a threat of eternal punishment as well?

In fact, when you say that “without fear of hell, people would kill, rape, steal, and so on”, aren’t you, in effect, saying that you would do that if you didn’t believe you’d go to hell for it? That you, yourself, don’t see any other reasons not to kill, rape or steal?

———

Going back to your specific question, you are in fact implying that I do not love my mother because I do not believe in God and do accept the theory of evolution.

I don’t think love exists purely within the confines of religion and a belief in God.

Moral philosophers have tackled the question of love, and duty/obligation to one’s family and a belief in God does not need to be part of this discussion.

You also use the word ‘random’. Evolution is far from a theory of utter randomness. Quite the opposite.

You love your mother for who she is, not where she came from. You love her because she gave birth to you. Because she has cared for you throughout your life. You love her because she loves you back. Do you think for one moment she would not love you if she were an atheist?

I’ll shy away from the Darwinian arguments of survival and that it’s in our benefit to reciprocate love but I believe animals have the same capacity for love, albeit in perhaps at a more basic level, as humans. If you’ve ever owned a cat or a dog that has had a litter you can see the love shown by the mother and the love given back to her from the litter. Do animals believe in God? No, they don’t have the capacity to do so yet love still exists.

One might argue that they are purely acting in a way that increases their chances for survival but the same argument can be applied to humans. When you are born, you do not know God, you have no concept of God. Do you love your mother? Not really but you do know where the milk comes from and that you need her to survive. I don’t really want to go down this road because I think I can answer the question without discussing Darwin but I think it’s worth a mention.

Like you, I do hear people say, ‘if you don’t believe in God then you can’t be moral?’ or ‘how can you love if you do not believe in God?’.

You only need to look at the most atheist societies in the world to see that morality is not linked to a belief in God (take Sweden or Norway and look at levels of crime/violent crime) and that you can love outside of a belief in God.

I could talk about this for hours but I won’t I think you’re underestimating yourself if you think that without God you are unable to love your mother. It does not matter how she was created, all that matters is that she is who she is.

It is still just a THEORY! Do you understand what theory means?

Evolution is a theory in the same way that gravitation is a theory. When science uses the term theory it’s very different to the way in which you or I might use it. Evolution is not a theory in the sense that someone came up with an idea that is not proven. You might theorize that atheists are horrible people. It’s a theory and you might be right but you have no evidence.

Evolution on the other hand is a scientific theory, one which has been tested, re-tested, subject to testing and then backed up with empirical evidence and data.

Take a look at the Wikipedia definition of theory:

“The word theory has a number of distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion.

In common usage, people often use the word theory to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements that would be true independently of what people think about them.

In science, a theory is a mathematical description, a logical explanation, a verified hypothesis, or a proven model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists “theory” and “fact” do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation.”

You make a point that is made all too often by those that have not properly investigated evolution or have knowledge about science and how scientific theories are formulated. Even the most ardent theists will not argue against evolution or creationism.

I’ve yet to find a theist with any real scientific qualification that will back creationism over evolution. It’s utter nonsense.

I encourage you to look at evolution and look at the formulation of scientific theorems and then come back to me and argue that evolution is still no more proven than creationism. It’s a shame that you’ve been so exposed by the lack of understanding in this area.

Check this site out for more info on the man speaking in this clip. It’s another side other than the liberal slant of the clip. http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2.asp

Lizzy, I find this link just as extreme as the video posted. It may come across as being more gentle but the ridiculous things they say are still there.

“According to evolutionists, the dinosaurs ‘ruled the Earth’ for 140 million years, dying out about 65 million years ago.”

According to evolutionists? No, it’s according to scientists. All scientists that do not have a religious agenda to push.

“However, scientists do not dig up anything labeled with those ages. They only uncover dead dinosaurs (i.e., their bones), and their bones do not have labels attached telling how old they are. “

The bones do have ‘labels’. There are many ways to understand how old something is. Anyone that suggests otherwise is misinformed.

“No scientist was there to see the dinosaurs live through this supposed dinosaur age. In fact, there is no proof whatsoever that the world and its fossil layers are millions of years old. No scientist observed dinosaurs die. Scientists only find the bones in the here and now, and because many of them are evolutionists, they try to fit the story of the dinosaurs into their view.”

this one’s particularly funny. Of course they’re wrong but aren’t these people doing the same thing to justify their belief in God? ROFL.

“Other scientists, called creation scientists…”

For one to call themselves a scientist they must have some knowledge of the scientific process. These people are not scientists, they judge data on the basis of theology, not empirical evidence. We should call them theologians not scientists.

I won’t go on. I find the article abhorrent. It’s disgusting to put forward these views. I’m actually sickened by it. It’s complete and utter nonsense and anyone, ANYONE with any knowledge of science knows that these people are deluded.

Basically we come from two very different view points. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

No. yours has weakness and mine is a position of strength. You’re tacitly admitting this by not addressing any of the points I put forward.

You started off by extolling the virtues of creationism and how it is as viable a theory as evolution.

I think you now realize that it’s not.

It’s so easy to point fingers at people who have different ideas than our own and spout off a lot of hate towards their beliefs.

Spout hate? I think you have confused ’spouting hate’ with offering evidence. You might feel as if I’m attacking you, I’m not. I’m simply providing evidence.

I believe that Christians and their beliefs are easy targets because #1 they stand for morality and good values

No, they are an easy target because there is no foundation for their beliefs and so they have to muddy the waters and make up things to try and help them convince others that what they believe in is true. You did this yourself earlier by trying to rubbish evolution.

As for moral values, I think you’ll find those with secular viewpoints are just as moral.

He will stop at nothing to bring as many people down and away from God as he possibly can while he has his time on earth.

And this is what it comes down to for you doesn’t it? You will not accept evidence, you will not discuss this rationally because you believe that this is all some kind of trick that Satan is pulling?

We try to take our kids out of the public school systems to protect them from athiest world view and we are condemned and hated for it.

Are you surprised? What you are really saying is that you don’t want your children to think critically about issues. You want to deny them the ability to learn on the basis of evidence. Religious dogmas get in the way of education.

What if the tables were turned and your children had to attend Christian schools that only taught creationism? Wouldn’t you be angry? Wouldn’t you feel like your rights are being stepped on?

The difference here is that one is real education and the other a myth perpetrated by those wanting to prove the existence of their god. I want my children to be open to all idea, all viewpoints. I don’t care what their political persuasion is, what they believe, as long as they are exposed to evidence, to real empirical fact. You are taking this away from your children. In 20 years time, your children will look back at their education and wonder, ‘why was I told that the earth is only 6,000 years old?’ It’s nonsense and I feel for any child indoctrinated in this way.

Could it be that maybe there is some truth to it and it scares you and other athiests? Just something to think about.

We are not scared of something that does not exist.

Furthermore, we are scared by children being taught falsities, by the damage religion is causing every day.

You talk about the devil and the evil that he causes, I put it to you that it’s the belief in God that really causes all this evil.

I’m just as sickened by the views of evolution.

No, we’re at a stalemate because you are not willing to accept evidence or to think rationally about life.

I can’t believe that so many people actually feel the way you do.

Once again, it’s not a matter of ‘feeling’ what we think comes from knowledge.

but I actually have an I.Q. of 140.

It’s amazing what indoctrination can do to otherwise intelligent beings isn’t it?

I’m into a personal relationship with Jesus.

That always makes me laugh. ‘Personal’? Uh huh.

People who’s only joy in life comes from spreading hate and judgements on a group of people they know nothing about and refuse to open their minds to another viewpoint.

We don’t hate. Our joy comes from knowledge, from true understanding.

As Carl Sagan once wrote:

Anything you don’t understand…you attribute to God. God for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say ‘God did it.’

and refuse to open their minds to another viewpoint.

We’re are open minded. I am willing to believe in God. You are the closed minded one. And I can prove it. I’ll ask you a question.

“What would you need to see to make you question your faith, to make you accept that God is not real?”

I can answer the opposite. I can tell you what I need to see. If you cannot give me an answer then it is you who is not willing to open your mind to other options.

You’ve already proved how closed your mind is. You’re not willing to look at creationism and judge it on merit. You simply accept that it is true.

What is your evidence? Why do you believe that Evolution is not a fact?

I’m comforted by having my relationship with Him and it gives me strength to face each day.

Good for you, I’m happy for you, but that does not mean that God exists. The mind plays many tricks.

Do you get that from evolution and science?

Yes.

Will evolution “have you back” when you die? Will it stand up and say, “bless you my good and faithfull servant?” No, it will remain in it’s dusty old books ready to destroy yet another generation. It’s so sad.

That’s the kind of thing that makes me chuckle. You’re scared to die. You’re scared of the unknown and you need to believe in something to make you feel better. It’s exactly as Sagan says,

Anything you don’t understand…you attribute to God. God for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say ‘God did it.’

Again, all I can say is you haven’t given me any real evidence. Evolution and science are your god. All of your comments above I can turn around and say the exact same thing about you and your beliefs. I blieve that evolution is a myth - not real. So we’ll just agree to disagree and all will be settled in the end. God bless you and I’ll pray for you Michael. I would ask you to do the same for me, but that’s right - the religion of science and evolution doesn’t believe in that. So sad.

Ok, here’s some evidence:

http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html

Take a read.

It’s called science, it’s simple.

I’m hoping you might actual address some of the arguments I’m offering rather than avoid them all.

Sounds like Carl Sagan is your Jesus.

You keep referring to me having gods or believing people I admire are Jesus. I’m not sure why.

It all goes back to the Big Bang THEORY

I’m not sure what evolution has to do with the big bang theory?? Very confused.

I have major problems with this on many different levels. #1 where did the gases come from?

But let’s run with it for a second.

You’re effectively using the idea of a complex divinty as an explanation for something less complex.

Furthermore (and I don’t know how many times I have to say this) even if theory A does not work for you, that does not mean that theory B is automatically correct.

I feel sorry for you because you actually believe that science can’t be falable

That’s the beauty of science, it can be fallible, it can be wrong. That’s why science is such a wonderful way of trying to understand. There are no absolutes.

I would love to keep chatting with you about this right now, but I can’t. I’m not avoiding anything I just have a life and need to get back to it. I have a 2 day old lamb whose mother died giving birth and I have to bottle feed it every three hours. I haven’t had much sleep and the lamb is crying so I’ve got to go for now.

Well feel free to come back at any time and answer some of the questions you’ve so far managed to evade. Whilst your at it, I’d be interested to know on what evidence you base your belief in creationism. Take some time, I’m in no hurry

Eureka! We have something! You admitted that science is fallible. It’s not perfect. That means the whole idea of evolution and any other THEORY like it just might be wrong. Hmm.

Hahahaha

The logic is interesting I suppose. Let’s look at it this way.

If science tells us that water boils at 100 degrees then through testing we can tell if science is right. Do you believe what science tells us about the temperature at which water boils? If so why?

Could it be wrong? Possibly but unlikely. We can see through evidence how the theory is structured. It is the same with evolution. We can see why evolution is seen as a fact. Could science be wrong? It could be wrong, just as it is with the boiling point of water.

Even if we accept that we might be wrong about the boiling point of water, does that mean if I suggest that water in fact doesn’t boil, that it’s an illusion, that my theory is automatically correct? I would have to provide evidence to justify my claims.

Evolution has been proven. It is a fact, just like gravity, just like the boiling point of water.

Creationism has no evidence to back it up. None at all. Zero.

You say that you are an atheist. Atheists don’t believe in God, yet you put human beings on pedistals as if they are gods

You’re really letting yourself down with this kind of comment. It’s called admiration. I admire many people, my mother, my friends etc etc. Are they gods to me? No.

Your dogmatic belief in science and evolution is no different than my belief in God

Science exists and evolution has evidence. Your god neither exists not can be proven.

So therefor you really are not an atheist. You do believe in a god. Just not the same one I believe in.

Again, you’re letting yourself down. Someone with an IQ of 140 ought to do better than this. It’s sad.

Now, please answer some of the questions I have asked you. Stop evading them.

I’m genuinely interested in your response. (or lack of depending on your next step)

I stopped posting seriously a week or so ago as i felt that my comments were not being looked at and that arrogance was the sole driving force of this atheist perspective.

I thought you stopped posting because you were, like Lizzy, unwilling to answer questions that I put forward to you.

As for arrogance, well, I think the most incredible arrogance is shown by those who believe they have unlocked the secrets to the universe, who understand the unknown and who have a personal relationship with the creator of everything.

Is that not the ultimate arrogance?